We are finally out of our two month Hiatus from the podcast- and we feel grateful for folks that have asked about our episodes, that share and review the podcast- and have supported us over the last two years.
Our returning episode features the amazing and incomparable Jade T. Perry. Jade moves us with Black feminist cosmologies, churchy mysticism, and embodied sensual ritual musings. Check out the instagram in the coming weekend as we will be offering reading resource guide from all of Jade’s amazing wisdom shares.
The Hermit’s call speaks to a post Jade wrote alongside the summer on Instagram
Within this post Jade mentions and references the work of Toni Cade Bambara. How is our house in order in the ways of movement building?
This Episode Features
Links
Jade T. Perry Patreon
Jade T. Perry Website
The Nap Ministry
@ItsJujubae (cited IG account)
@millennialsoulfood (cited IG account)
Book Resource Guide available @thewitchesmuse platform
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/thewitchesmuse) or offer one time donations via Venmo @tarapin (this helps us pay podcast guests, supports music and mixing the episodes)
We are finally out of our two month Hiatus from the podcast- and we feel grateful for folks that have asked about our episodes, that share and review the podcast- and have supported us over the last two years.
Our returning episode features the amazing and incomparable Jade T. Perry. Jade moves us with Black feminist cosmologies, churchy mysticism, and embodied sensual ritual musings. Check out the instagram in the coming weekend as we will be offering reading resource guide from all of Jade’s amazing wisdom shares.
The Hermit’s call speaks to a post Jade wrote alongside the summer on Instagram
Within this post Jade mentions and references the work of Toni Cade Bambara. How is our house in order in the ways of movement building?
This Episode Features
Links
Jade T. Perry Patreon
Jade T. Perry Website
The Nap Ministry
@ItsJujubae (cited IG account)
@millennialsoulfood (cited IG account)
Book Resource Guide available @thewitchesmuse platform
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/thewitchesmuse) or offer one time donations via Venmo @tarapin (this helps us pay podcast guests, supports music and mixing the episodes)
Hey Al, thanks so much for listening to the witches muse. The episodes you are about to hear are dated, uh, before, uh, sometime in the late summer, early fall, as we time travel through. Thanks so much for continuously listening to the podcast. You can subscribe, rate and review us. Uh, we are definitely in the process of moving and changing the way we witness and connect in conversation with the witches muse as a podcast, uh, feel free if you like what you hear to offer a one-time donation via PayPal, or subscribe to our Patrion as community support. This helps us pay our guests, uh, keep our equipment running, um, and continue to bring this space of conversation. I really feel grateful to everyone that has tuned in so far and continuously offered support. And as always, I hope you tend to yourselves to your communities and to that, which makes your soul's longing feel home. Thanks so much for listening. And, uh, I will see you all on the other side, Your house, Taryn Burke, and you're listening to the witch's muse stories beneath the surface where initiation and inspiration meet. And we explore the many facets of being human, our work in the world.
Speaker 2:[inaudible]
Speaker 1:Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the witches muse. Um, my name is Tara and I am so excited to welcome today. J T Perry. Uh, it's an honor. I, you know, I love bios written and I, for me, a lot of the times when I am in conversations with the podcast folks and folks that come on the, on the podcast, I really, um, have liked to develop some type of relationship. That's actually a little bit more informal. It just feels, um, just more in relationship to the type of work I like to create, um, like in a communion of some sorts. And so, um, I have been loving JT Perry's work for a while now and, uh, through Ebony, uh, Janiece and I just have any Denise's work is, um, also amazing, which I'll post a link to. And, uh, JT Perry is an educator, a writer, a churchy, mystic it disabled black femme, and just a goddess of sorts. I, I, again, I'm just constantly amazed at the work they kind of put through on their Patrion and, um, a lot of the questions that I have, we're going to kind of dive deeper into their work. And so, um, I really wanted to begin the episode kind of with, uh, a little bit of a quote around mysticism, right. And around mystic. And so this is actually from, uh, JT Perry's work. And so I'm just going to go ahead and kind of muse it through, and then I would love, uh, JT Perry to just welcome them into the space and offer just kind of more musings to this, this already beautiful quote. So, uh, the beginning of the quote begins, um, broadly I define a mistake. This is JT Perry speaking. I defined a mystic as someone who prioritizes and lives in the light of a personal encounter with the divine. However, they might understand it, which can be within or outside of any specific religious tradition. Being a mistake is about appreciating the mystery and the spiritual unknown, and still trying to connect with that unknown. Anyway, the mystical tradition is all up in and through black history, black present and the black future. Um, and that's from black mysticism and bodied, um, and quote through JT Perry's wisdom on Patrion. And so I would love, um, I, as we're all evolving, I'm curious, has mystic and mysticism evolved for you more or to speak more to that quote and any way to start us off?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Thank you for reading that so beautifully. I love the way that like our voices can animate our words. And so just hearing that back, um, and your voices are really different and really pleasant and beautiful experience. So thank you so much. Um, Oh my goodness has mystic evolved for me since that time. I think the core of it has been the same, um, and that focus on what are the direct encounters of the divine. But I think for me, the ways that I've been experiencing that has expanded now, especially in quarantine and this kind of global moment and in this moment for, um, black lives and this, this fight for justice and equity, um, being a mistake now, uh, is really, really interesting because I'm getting to see the, um, warrior face of the divine. Um, and at the same time, the gentle and nurturing face of the divine. And it's a really, really interesting, it's only a juxtaposition in my mind cause I have a finite mind, but I think it's just such a it's it's been, um, it's been beautifully stretching, beautifully stretching. Um, now a really think about, and I think that this is happening collectively, right? Like I'm reading so much, uh, memorized Owens, just released love. And a lot of folks are talking about kind of what, um, what anger looks like and, and that in this moment, in this spiritual moment and this political moment. And so I think for me right now, as getting in touch with that face of the divine, which empowers us to, um, fight and fight for liberation and push forward, um, inviting us into a really, really high it's, a high work, uh, charged work. Um, and then the hope is I think one of the things that we sometimes forget to do, um, as spiritualist or activists or organizers or whatever, wherever we find ourselves, um, we forget to then turn towards that nurturing face of the divine after we've, you know, done our dinner action and then all of these things. And so I'm learning to, um, I'm learning to practice turning towards both of those faces and both of those, um, encounters, uh, with the divine at this, at this moment. So the core hasn't changed, but you know, the life of spirit, you're always learning something new. So that's kind of what I've been reflecting on these days.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I love the way that you court the warrior face and the gentle nurture and how they both can be held. And, um, again, uh, you are super open about your background as a churchy mystic, and really the first time I have heard of churchy mystic is through your eyes though. Um, many black folks in my community, I know have connected through spirit through, by way of the church. And so I'm curious if you would say a little bit, um, of something about how magic was around you growing up, you know, as a churchy metric, you speak really deeply on the influence of, of spirit through this lens. And, um, I actually grew up with no faith background. Um, my parents, my dad was Catholic all the way through all the way up until graduate school, but then I never went to church. And then my mom did, and they actually found the most communion through their Japanese convenient post camp in church. So it was actually really fascinating that I was never invited into that space. They both, they both like, I never, we never joined one. It never happened. So that was my experience. But yeah, I'm curious, um, growing up magic as a kid magic as a churchy mystic. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't know that I would have, I will actually I'm sure. I'm sure I wouldn't have said, Oh, this is magic or this is, you know, those are just not words that were in that text. Um, but what's interesting is, um, so I grew up the kind of church that I grew up in really kind of matters here because it was small. It was a small church and, um, Philly, uh, more on the Northern side and that the church was actually inside of this. And there was this big, steep parking lot in client. You had to kind of go across a treat that street is like crown fried chicken and like neighborhoods like flower man and all of these different, like kind of things, a huge into bustling intersection at seven 11 and up on this kind of like hilly area drive up the parking lot. There's this like house you could tell or used to be a house and it's painted this like, like this Pepto-Bismol pink. I don't know why. I don't know why that was the color, but it was a very interesting place. Like it is very interesting plays to say, well, go drive up. And then you would, you know, everybody greets you in the parking lot. You go in and it was a small sanctuary, uh, half of the half of the first floor was the sanctuary. And then the other half was like the overflow room or like kind of the fellowship hall. And so it was a very small group of folks. Um, in that church, it probably could fit 70 people on a good day. Um, and so, and, and the makeup of the church was a black diasporic makeup. So the most, most of the people who went to that church, um, were black Americans, um, where, uh, folks that had immigrated from, um, Nigeria in the, I would say, when did they get the, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the every six years, six ish years ago, if I'm remembering correctly. And then, um, Jamaican Americans, you're all in the Northeast, right? So worship was this, uh, mishmash, Oh, black diasporic cultures. We weren't in the container of one denomination. We're not denominational. Um, but the big thing in the church was like, we want to move by the spirit. We moved by the spirit with, it was like the running joke that they would print the program. But I mean, it was really no point to print a program. Are you going to say predict because it was, that was the thing, like, it was like, the spirit is not subject to the program. The program is for us to find ourselves in this space, but whatever spirit wants to do, you know, spirit wants to do so when you grow up in a church like that, you know, any moment can, any moment can be a charged moment. Um, if worship or singing is going long and people are crying and people are, you know, then it just goes along. Uh, so it was a very interesting, interesting space, um, and charismatic space. And so there was definitely like this, this huge cosmology, um, of spirit and the kinds of spirits sometimes for, for better or for worse, right. I kind of inherited this pretty huge cosmology, um, and particularly in black American spirituality, because it's so high bread, um, it would be very, very interesting because there were a lot of unnamed cosmologies, but their, their presence was, felt all the same, right. There was God, and there was Jesus where it was safe to name. Right. And then there was a Holy ghost who was also safe to name, cause it was Christian adjacent, which is very much in line with, right. Like the ways that black folks have had to, um, almost code their spirituality. I don't think that they, that was the awareness that folks were going into it saying like, this is, you know what I mean? This is what I'm doing. Um, but certainly when I left that space and I, you know, did some, some exploring and some faith development and some spiritual development, I was like, yeah, that was not, that was not a white Christian. It's different going on in this space. And fascinatingly enough, when I started hanging out with a lot of other like ritual lists and spiritual lists and weekends and pagans, uh, it was hysterical because when they were talking about like binding or losing or this, that I'm like, Oh yeah, I know we learned that. We don't,
Speaker 4:You got that primer. Yeah. You got the framer. Yeah. I love it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And so it just, it was a really interesting space and it was so spontaneous. So I think that the magic really came from, from there. I didn't name it as magic until I got older though, but, uh, because of the, it was like, anything can happen every Sunday, like anything can happen. And I think that, that for me, wasn't really playful way to engage spirit for sure.
Speaker 4:I love it. Oh yeah. And I love the idea of, uh, of the way that the, again, like I'll use Indo-European as the landscape and even like when the Notre Dom thing happened, how churches have really been in my experience of church, it's, it's been this giant building, this giant kind of like way of separating myself from spirit. And so I love this story, weavings of a house of the house Pepto-Bismol pink in between the seven 11. You could get those little tuxedos. I remember. And so I just, I find myself like loving that because it, to me there's more of a, um, what feels like homey. It feels very like, um, you know, more of a earth, like I'd like to say it's got that. Herth like intention. And, um, so, you know, as we kind of use the lens, I kind of begin, we go from childhood and I go right into a big question because, uh, we talk about black spiritualist. Um, your work is really focuses and really supports black mysticism, um, of the diaspora and of black Americans. And so I'm curious just how, in what ways, um, black mysticism is becoming fortifying being the future. Um, I, again, am just like, so in gratitude and in grace for blessed black mystic embodiment, and I feature a lot of black mystics on this podcast. And so, yeah, I'm curious, you know, from your ways of, of your lessons, your learnings, connections with your teachers, both here and other worldly. Yeah. What ways is black mysticism? Just, um, I would say fortifying define the future, being the future, becoming the future.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's so good. Um, I believe that time runs in a circle and I believe that, um, there are so much potential and in the present, in the immediate past and the far past, the deep past and the deep future. And so I love the fact that it's almost like people are having this moment of going back, right. This, um, same call for a moment of going back to see what were the seeds of mysticism in the past. Um, what were the seeds of, of, of black spirituality in the past and how did our ancestors continue to practice? Um, when oppressed, one of the things that I have found just through my own readings and just writing and, um, uh, the beautiful work of folks like that Deyvon should Roe and Dr. Stephanie Mitchum, um, is that there, there is not an oppression of the body without an oppression of the spirit. And I think that's felt particularly salient for black folks, um, especially on these, you know, on these Western shores. And it's, it's fascinating because I think like that this, this, now that we have this information about the past, um, it's four or five as for the, for the future. And to know that, like this isn't new, I think there's something empowering about knowing like this isn't new and I'm carrying forward, um, a tradition that is actually carrying me. Right. And so I, I appreciate that. I mean, you watch films and, um, um, you read books like, uh, like beloved by Toni Morrison, and you can just see these, you know, um, spaces and you read, you know, Zomy a new spelling of my name by Audrey Lorde or salt eaters by Tony came on board, and you just kind of see how, um, blacks, virtuality and black mysticism, um, and the black supernatural is such a part of like folklore and, and storytelling. And one of the things that has, has been more of a tangible example in my own life is when I was in grad school. I started getting a master's of education and I was working with, um, Stu I was working with, uh, students. And one of the things that I wanted to research was how, how spiritual identity development, particularly in spiritual spaces for black students like undergraduate students, um, how it, I wanted to explore what it did for their sense of belonging and what it did for their sense of resilience. What, um, challenges did the students face, particularly in the context I was looking at was predominantly white institutions. So how does black spirituality shift, um, or, or provide resistance or resilience in predominantly white institutions? And, Oh my God, this is not to take anything from my teacher. Is that like, uh, Dr. Susan Rankin. Thank you. You know, Dr. Kimberly Griffin. Thank you. Um, but it was so, I mean, it was, like I said, I wanted to study aeronautics right in the higher ed. I mean, it was very much like, well, how does this and dah, dah, dah darker Terrell strain horn did a, um, a really interesting study about black students in gospel choir specifically, and, and looking at that and how, you know, that safe space created these different outcomes. And so for me, I was looking at like social identity development, and then I was also kind of comparing with spiritual identity development and trying to see, well, what were black students doing? And flash forward, you know, years later. And I started working in, um, higher education and I started working in, you know, like offices of multicultural student success and student affairs. And it was like, as the generations went on, it was this current generation while I no longer work within that container alone. So vocal, like, so vocal about that old, like spiritual identity development, um, going out and pulling in the resources for themselves. Um, there's so much out there now too, like folks like, um, it's Juju Bay, um, are, are, are doing good work, millennials, food, doing good work. Um, I mean, so many people I don't want to, I hesitate to even name them because there's so many great people, but folks have it's, it's almost like, you know, in those years now where social media and Instagram and all of these different things have also taken its own new shape. The youth now are like, yeah, black. It's like not, I find myself, I don't have to introduce the topic as deeply as I used to, or like black mysticism and spirituality, you know, one-on-one like, they're already ready to come into like one Oh two, two, two, three helped broke. And so it's, it's just, uh, encouraging, encouraging to see, um, that there's this sense of fortification and there's this sense of empowerment, not that all okay. Like black people are not a monolith, so we're all believing different things. And we're all, you know, on these different roles of spirituality, but it seems like in the collective shift, um, people are much more interested in at least engaging the conversation and figuring out I like to call this your, like your social, spiritual identity. People are really doing a lot of socio spiritual identity development work that I think they maybe don't know that that's what they're doing.
Speaker 4:There's like so many threads of this that I love. And, uh, the thread that I'm going to follow is like, just with like young, black, indigenous, like young black people of color, young people in leadership, I am constantly humbled and amazed again with the vocabulary they come through with like the terminologies that have already been created. Um, even just around for me with gender identity and the ability of embodying gender identity, um, understanding more around disability awareness and disability justice. Like, I didn't even know what an indivisible invisible disability was until really reinforced by the work of, um, Mia, Mingus, others, but really a lot of young people bringing that to the forefront. And the example I'll have is I went to the allied media conference, um, which I loved, um, and was just in love with the idea to have a virtual platform for it. Cause it made it accessible and I had just had a surgery. Um, so even like just the thought process of if I had had that surgery, then it would have even been hard to go. Um, and they had a really amazing panel about queering public space. Um, and I'm doing some trans and gender diverse advocacy work here in the place where I live. Um, and I found myself in such reference of watching these young kids, people of color, young youth of color in leadership, you know, breaking down accomplishment, you know, accomplished, even dismantling. They're like we're way past allyship we are on to accomplish. And so just talking that, and, uh, the queering public space was bringing a, um, you know, youth community of color together at the Chicago park district and holding these basically balls or Gallas or opportunities for these kids to Kiki in these spaces and just have this opportunity to show just this, uh, this beauty and it was all organized by them. And so I just felt, um, in a lot of deep gratitude to, as you said, the fortification and, um, as a mixed kid, you know, as a Japanese American mixed kid, um, getting to have the connection with, uh, folks in my community and getting to talk to young, uh, Japanese youth that are talking about model minority myths and dismantling that, and just working in such a deep conversation around what that looks like, um, in the terms of accomplice work and, and just community building. And I just, again, I totally agree, like the idea of not even needing to give a primer like they already have. I know I love how you put the course, like the three Oh two or the, all of this, because again, the language and the lexicon. So, um, you know, moving through you also connect to the work of the taro, um, and big shout out to, uh, just your taro Academy, uh, Cecilia Western Terrell Academy by the name for your, uh, grandma, I believe, um,
Speaker 3:For my grandmother's grandmother,
Speaker 4:Beautiful lineage of, of that. Um, and so just again, that is, uh, uh, to, for folks that don't know it's a first time inaugural Academy for taro and folks interested in deepening their practice and their connectivity to reading, understanding, and connecting to the relationship of taro. And, um, it is through their patriarch, through JTS Perry's Patrion. And so I'm curious, you know, as a terrible reader, if there's a certain car that's, you know, coming through on the spreads for your personal practice right now, um, and or a car that you feel like, you know, you would connect to collective healing for liberation or something that's like really amusing. You have a lot of great readings about it, and you actually did a bunch of great posts on your Patriot about, uh, specifically around black liberation and the movement of as the uprisings were beginning. And so I'm curious, um, it's kind of an either or question, or you can answer, you could answer both, but whatever feels good for you in the moment.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I feel like you're already gonna know what I'm going to say, but I'm going to say anyway, but I'm definitely still at the hermit card. Like I'm still there. I'm still there in, um, at the top of the summer, um, I released this, uh, invitation called the hum you know, the hermit's call. Um, and it was an invitation to the revolution inside of you inside of us, um, heavily influenced by Toni Cade, Bambara his work in the essay on the issue of roles, uh, where she talks about someone asked her like, what's the role of, you know, of the, of black women and movement spaces. And she just like, yeah, deconstructed that question was like generic. Like, I mean, she did some heavy lifting, but the end of it was, um, the end of it was talking about the revolution being inside of here. Right. And that it's not liberatory. Right. And this is this, these are not her words. This is my own kind of paraphrasing in this moment, but it's not liberatory right. To do all of these things, to the plan, that direct action and do all of these things and do the direction, and then like come back, you know, to headquarters and like fighting, like yell at him like that. You know what I mean? Like there's a, the revolutionary component, but what her argument was was not that we're not going to have conflict because that's just not even the case, but really looking at well, what are our internal practices? What, what are, what are our internal politics? How's our, you know, how does this come into our relationships? And she talks about building revolutionary lives, revolutionary relationships and revolutionary selves. And so for me, the hermit card really is a good reminder of that building of the revolutionary self. Um, the hermit is not necessarily, you know, the terrible doesn't stay at the hermit. We, the Herman is not the last card, you know, in the majors. And so we end up moving from, you know, the hermit all the way to the world and bringing that out and see this, you know, but I really big, like a lot of us are in this hermit moment of like, what does my revolutionary life look like in this moment? And, and for some people, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's cute. And for some people's names, right. But I think we're really in this, um, hermit moment where we're not only are we being asked to examine where we are, um, what is our revolutionary self, but we're also being asked to honor, um, those teachers that have come before us, right. Those hermit figures or those mentor figures, those Sage like figures who has come, who have walked the roads, right. They've, they've walked these roles, I'm reading. Um, um, the book about I'm reading a book about a finish, of course it was written by Jasmine guy. And just thinking about like, what is it, what does it mean when so many of the folks who have laid the path for us had these Wong stretches of isolation, long stretches of isolation, right? Whether it's state sanctions isolation, or whether it's, um, just being a woman, being a woman, being a black woman and movement space and, and how isolating that journey can be. And so the hermit is really interesting because it reminds me of these people who have walked these roads before and are like this, you know, the image, the typical image of the hermit, you know, they've got their little lamp here, um, and everything around them is dark, but they've got their lamp and they've got that kind of revolutionary fire. That's helping them to move forward, um, as they continue on to, you know, the world card, which is kind of this world that we're hoping to, to dream and to envision and to imagine. So I think that's, that's where I'm at. I don't know where we at the collective, but that's, that's where I'm at.
Speaker 4:Well, and I like love it too, because I think cultivating this. And I think we're talking about like, rest is actually becoming a conversation that's like not only talked about. And I mean, we are constantly talking about ways to support rests in the revolution and refs as a form of resistance. But I, and now I just feel like the conversation of rest is not something that people not only want to talk about. It is just like the center focus of conversation of how to support rest, at least within some of my spheres of connection and people that I'm in community with. It's not, how can I support you to do more? It's like, how can I actually get you to, to rest, to rest well, to rest easily? And I kind of pulled up a little something now, I kind of know what this episode will probably be coined when, uh, listeners listen to it. Um, but you know, JT Perry kind of writes in quote, the hermit or the Sage quality is inside of all of us. If we're willing to cultivate it, the homemade uses the spiritual technology of going inward in order to ensure that our living is valued centered. If we take this archetypal energy seriously, it can help us to live into the words of Sage and cultural worker, Toni Cade, Bambara, to make sure our house is in order quote and quote, that's a quote from the author and just to make sure our house is in order. And that to me is it's true, you know, doing all this movement, work, doing things that are really supporting community, but then coming back and noticing that everything is just in a normal day, it's, it's not gonna, it's not gonna really center us back to continue. And like, as you said, just that long road, um, that long road forward and just moving in that way. Um, and this interesting thing about movement building also being something that's slow and mindful and fortifying, there's something about that slow. I think of things like molasses actually in honey that like cultivate a slowness, but also the sweetness in that, um, just like imagery that comes through. Um, so as we get into kind of, uh, you know, the hermit card and just the wisdom of the Sage, some of that work, I feel like, and you as a, as an educator, specifically with inner spaces around mysticism, um, just even on like your ways in which social media you, um, have been so inspiring for myself and just understanding my deeper relationship and framework around boundary work, um, and you call them pro tips because I'm like, you're right. That is a, like, it makes me, you know, I grew up in Chicago, uh, over, you know, I was suburbanized in third grade. So, but I grew up over on bell bell Avenue Greenleaf, and I just remember the days of MJ. And so when you say pro tips, I'm like, Oh, like Michael Jordan.
Speaker 3:And I like have these, like, I have
Speaker 4:These like basketball references. I'm
Speaker 3:Like, Oh, you know, um,
Speaker 4:Or like a really good haircut. Like I would, you know, my mom would take me to the haircut, go get a haircut or something and I'd make sure to get the pro tips. She, my mom, my mom, I was, I grew up in salons a lot. So, uh, so I was, so I'm curious for you. So when you go through the, uh, framework around pro tips and boundary works, what would you offer to other folks, whether it's, um, black, spiritual inspect, mystics, um, you know, just mystics, just, you know, what would you offer for other folks involved in healing work and spiritual modalities? Um, just with how you've integrated pro tips and boundary work in your practices. And that's, you know, it could be professional business stuff the day to day. It could be kind of like the bigger space holding with facilitation. So yeah. Any wisdom on that?
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness. That's kind of a hard one. That's kind of a hard one. Um, but going back, Oh my God. Shout out to, uh, Trisha Hersey of the net ministry who has been doing so much around like rest and rest as resistance and, ah, so good. I feel like, I feel like they also do really strong boundary work there almost always. I'm always like, yes, come on. I think for me, I learned, I, I learned it, um, because I saw it modeled. Um, my, my mother is a boundary queen. Um, my mother is boundary the down and, um, she worked, she worked within, when she was working, she worked within a helping profession. And, um, so I just saw her kind of like, yep, we'll make sure you get what you need, but we don't do it like this. We gotta do it. Like you're not going to wear me out. Like, and so I saw it modeled. Um, and I'm grateful. I'm grateful for that. Um, even, even looking at my grandmother, sometimes she would, someone would say something or suggest something and she would look right back at them and be like, I don't receive that. I mean, and so it just was like, I didn't get it. Of course when I was younger, I didn't get it, but it was like, but I get it now. I certainly get it now. Um, but I think for me, it's so important to, to use your voice, to use your voice, to say what it is that you need to say, what it is. Um, that's going to be life-giving for you, um, a life cultivating for you. And for me, I think that's where I start, what are, what are my values and how do I communicate that in a way to other people that is also practical, right? That it's practice based. Right. And so if I'm saying that, okay, I have a, I have a value in ease, then I have to create some scripts or some boundaries that help us to, to, to flow into ease. Right? So I try to start with, well, what are my values and how do I express them in lived and practical, um, ways. I also realized that the ways that we're socialized to provides boundary work to do from the get-go and because we are socialized, um, through capitalism to be consumers, a lot of times that reads on to like these apps, they got a business model. And so that reads on to where people are trying to consume, consume, or I want to consume your content and consume you want to consume, like, and I think for me, the boundary work has to be like, Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like I'm in full person. I am not here to be consumed. Um, but you can be in a reciprocal relationship with the work. Um, we can come to the table and talk about these topics and these concepts. Um, but no, you don't get like all of my time, all of my, like, no, cause I need some for me too. So I think for me it just, the modeling has helped. And then also just understanding what are the socializations and then what are my values and finding a place to speak from between those.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's like, I go back to the hermit in a way and just the idea of the house in order and there's nothing. And I think about, um, that's been a really great reframe for me. It's like thinking about, um, you know, Instagram kind of like a home or a space in which I would cultivate something that feels like home. Um, or, or maybe a, or maybe multiple houses, right. Maybe it's just like a community of homes. And so when I think about that, it's interesting to then notice like, and I'll use examples of just like when things were happening and the uprisings were happening and everybody who apparently liked didn't have any black friends decided they needed to, Oh yeah. 5,000 of their life is wild. And so then no, that response for, you know, again, like people are coming in, knocking down the door and they're not even like taken off there. Shoes are just like in there, there's like the best dish off the thing. And like my favorite team mug, and this isn't even for me, right. This is me and space for friends. And, uh, so there's this, there's that importance. And I think that for me around the values and then making it practice, making it practical, um, understanding and holding that, and that there's also like, um, nothing wrong with holding like a firm boundary. Like there's nothing wrong in that. I think, um, for myself growing up, uh, there was some times, again the need to like always be accommodating. There's definitely layers within my family lineage around like, um, service service-based things serve, like, you know, kind of making that. Um, and so, you know, noticing that and then, um, noticing how that is something that I'm unlearning is it's, it's like if it's not serving my needs and my values first it's okay for me to kind of put that firm boundary. And when people bounce up against that, it's not really me. Who's, who's needing to catch that bounce. It's like, I'm just kind of holding that really steady. So I appreciate the way that you cultivate that and shout out to, uh, Jade, T Perry's mom, what's your mom's name is her name is Dora. Dora, thank you so much. We appreciate you. Um, so getting into like, you know, cause your layers like again, and I really love how you talk about the monolith. Um, because I think again, it's like, we're not all like one type of person we are so multifaceted we're so multi-dimensional, we're pres I like to say we're prismatic, you know, like I love looking at like, um, those fun crystals that kind of come through and you can put them in the window sill and they can like reflect in a flat light. Like I like to think of that as, as humans. And so some of your other work you love is around embodied sensuality and I am just really excited to know whatever feels safe, you know, for you to talk about openly in this moment around the embodied sensuality is rituals project, like kind of how it came to be. And then something that I feel like you've asked folks in inquiry, which has been great learning for me, but I'm going to like, you know, as well. Yeah, you didn't teach her, I'm gonna bounce it back and ask, you know? Um, and have you kind of learned about sexuality and sensuality, um, and then how experienced now your own sexual and sensual energy. And this is, you know, dated all the way back to December 9th, 2019 when you started talking about this. So I love, it always loved the timelines cause it just kind of shows the relevancy. So yeah. Anything you'd like to speak about just the project, just reflection around sexuality and sensuality.
Speaker 3:I would love to, yeah. I want to say, I feel like it's been a long time in the making for sure. Uh, 25th, I would even say 2014, 2014 to 2016. Um, I was doing a lot of writing about, um, black church women and the erotic and I was doing a lot of reading and, um, and, and writing and uh, shout out to Dr. Tamara Lomex, um, who wrote Jezza bell on Hinz, his beautiful book, um, on some of these themes and topics. And they invited me to write something for a project that they were working on. And as I was writing, it was interesting because I kept being pulled out of this space of the mind and into the space of the body. And I didn't quite know what to do with that at the time. I didn't quite know what to do with that at the time. And I was also going through my own kind of personal like life histories and things of that nature. And so I moved through, um, this writing process and I was like, okay, I got to do something in my body. I gotta like move my body, um, in some kind of way. And so I was doing all these little, just little things, little kind of like writings. It was not formalized at all these little writings. I would take some pictures and post it on Instagram and kind of be like a body rituals that are just kind of like creating, just creating. Um, shortly after I took a class with the incomparable, um, Rashida combat Miller, um, and it's, it was essential floor work. And so we're doing central floor work and nobody, nobody teaches central for floor work or like Rashi. Um, and so that was a really healing space and I charted that journey. Right. And, and, uh, she was so super supportive in helping me to chart kind of that journey from engaging this as, um, an intellectual kind of project and, and moving it through these incremental stages through the body. Um, and then after that, I just, I, I continued to experiment, I, I, um, have a strong interest in folk urbalism so I started looking at like, okay, what are some herbs that help us move into sensuality, sexuality and spirituality and on and on and on and on and on and on it went until, um, I could put it together in a way that translated for people and kind of what the heart was. And the heart of it really is, um, helping and encouraging and supporting, um, black women, femmes, gender, non binary babes, and our cutesy pop cousins to heal from religiously based sexual suppression, um, religiously based central suppression, the road to that is quite different. And it's quite different for black women, especially because we're grappling with the history of, um, women's clubs. We're grappling with the history of purity culture. We're grappling with all of these, all of these racialized and gendered realities. Um, and when it's racial and gender oppression and spiritual language that doesn't make it not oppressive, that makes it oppression is spiritual language. And what I've learned through the through the years is that that can't just be unlearned on the intellectual level. You have to bring it into the body, have to bring it into the body. And so the embodied central rituals project helps people to bring it into the body. So you get those intellectual pieces, right? We will do prompts, we're explore prompts and we'll look at readings and we'll do deep reads. Like we still reading Audrey Lord uses of the Iraq, like deep readings. Um, and, and then, you know, we come together, we party together. We, um, we have right pain sip nights, right. We have a group chat where we talk about the prompts and so we move it into these different spaces. And, and one thing that I've also learned is that, um, you can't, it's not going to say you can't, I'm just going to say that it helps when you have a community to do this work with, because then you can kind of reflect and you can hear what other people are moving through and hopefully then it will empower you. So that's kind of the arc of, of embodied central rituals. It's an ever evolving project. And I think that's what makes it the most fun to me because the erotic itself, sexuality itself, sensuality itself is fluid. It shifts it's shifting is, is, is ever evolving. And so the work and invite essential rituals, 2020, um, it doesn't look the same as it did 2016, right. But the seeds are still, they're still in conversation with each other. And so I love, I love kind of what's happening with it. And I love all the other folks too, who are engaging these, these intersections as well.
Speaker 5:Mm Hmm. I'm excited for a paint party. Yay.
Speaker 3:I'm telling you, we have a good time that first hour, you know, we're looking at the, the grounding statements and the affirmation that we're doing more rituals, but the second hour we just, you know, we playing games and paint and sip in and like, you know, it's, it's, it's a good, it's good vibes.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. And I love the idea around because for myself and healing things as a survivor, just noticing, just noticing some content warning here for folks around survivorship and sexual trauma. I'm just noticing my ability to finally come into relationship with that part of myself around self cultivation around even masturbation. Like, I didn't even like move into that landscape until like my late twenties, which people are like, they didn't understand. I was like, you know, I had these moments, but just around these layers, I thought that, you know, through codependency and these issues, that that's how I was supposed to receive pleasure. And so finding, being at home with myself, and then now getting to this point of being able to explore the erotic at home with other folks that are in that place feels like a deep joy. So I'm looking forward to that, especially, um, there's something about showing up. I just be so about, you know, with a little bit of like a fur and then this like lingerie on, and that image to me just brings me again home. I, you know, I grew up in, uh, Chicago on the North side and then a little bit in the suburbs, but I remember a little bit of my upbringing of just, uh, having, you know, grandmas and aunties and my mom's friends with like their coats, like, so something about that imagery coming through at this time. And so I'm just looking forward to it. And also, um, I'm also really looking forward to, and, um, JT will have to do this, uh, post, but to just get all the wonderful, um, information that you have offered in terms of these brilliant works of people, a lot of black feminist theology, a lot of just like, um, really amazing, just all of these references of scholars that you've even said throughout this. Like I was trying to keep up, but I wanna, you know, just emphasize that I'm hoping we can have some of that and the notes. And this is again, another reason why, um, I'm grateful for your work and, and the work of black feminists because of the way, uh, citations is a, is a lineage based honor system is really almost what feels like, um, spiritual spell work of like affirmation work kind of held through. And, and so I just want to honor that, uh, the way that you caught that in your work and the way that it's, to be honest, not courted in lots of white dominance, virtual spacious. So when we talk about this, you know, and like I admit my own faults being a young, 19 year old having no. And again, this comes to the context of having no religious background, like growing up in the sense of like that way. So needing to find a way to identify to spirit. So I really found myself through yoga and chakras and energy system work first. And then I, you know, within my late twenties, I've finally come through to the ANU, which is a Japanese shamanism, and I really don't even use shamanism lightly. So I'll just say the ANU cultures, um, honestly like Japanese anime as spiritual Praxis. Um,
Speaker 3:Oh, yay.
Speaker 4:So understanding my lineage, um, you know, and even how my lineage has had appropriation tendencies, like rake, I, again, you know, full disclosure and there's a big conversation in my community about this, but like, I didn't actually really know Reiki was a Japanese thing until much later in my life because of the way that it had been presented to me with very little context and also, um, with a lot of transparency, you know, as someone who, you know, was unable to learn my language, uh, you know, kind of struggles a little bit in the being a, being a mixed kid, you struggle with not being enough of anything and noticing for my own sense of self, like how some of, even the translations, when you go down the rabbit hole, like some of those Reiki translations, like aren't actually really like translated to be in, like they're not translated verbatim, like as many things are like, and so I just, one, one honor, just how much I feel like whereby femmes and black feminist theologies has done the work and the citations. Um, and I just, I'm curious your thoughts of just, you know, the way in which, or why there's such a deep importance for, you know, citation work, lineage tracking, like, um, offering, cause you do such a beautiful job of it in your work. And so I'm just curious if you could speak to its importance. I mean, I kind of feel like it's just goes without stating that's important, but I sometimes feel like people need to be, I kind of call it like a little Sage stick, like the hermit, and it'd be like bopped on the head with a little bit of it and just,
Speaker 3:Um, yeah, just
Speaker 4:The importance of that. Um, and then, yeah, I have one more with just kind of a beautiful guy that's actually supporting of the Cecilia Westin Terrell Academy work. And we can kind of talk about that guide as well, but I'll leave that question for kind of just you speaking to this.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think it's important to first name that, um, black spiritualities, um, and, and folklore, um, there's, there's so much that happens and it's transmitted through oral histories and through storytelling and through all of these things. And so I think that that's been modeled for me in a, in a way, um, through I've come from a family of storytellers. I mean, they love, I mean, that's all they do when they get, um, is tell stories. And so I end up pulling in these different pieces and these different characters in these different, um, ways, almost the different characters are also thinking, and it's, it's a beautiful art system, if you know how to, you know, how to work it. Um, and then pairing that with my background in education, where it just was. So I come from also from a family of educators. So my, my grandmother, my dad, my mom, um, all spent time within educational systems and I won't go, that's a different rent for, for a different day because the educational system, um, but through that lens, I did learn the importance of, um, just cite it. Like it doesn't take any, you know, it's no skin off your teeth to say, I learned this from somewhere else. I learned this from this person or this person's work has helped me, um, move through. And I also want to set up, um, one to set up kind of just the energetic reality that I expect to be sighted. Right. So I'm going to say others because I expect to be cited. Um, and so I think that that like is, is definitely something that's important. Um, and I, I agree with you. I used to work in, um, these various spiritual spaces. I'm not even going to say weird, but these spiritual spaces, um, that were predominantly white and, um, constant, it was constant. You, you didn't know where this thing was coming from. You don't know where this, you know, say just hard harvested from you. Don't like just constant like gaps in information, right. Even some of the folks are writing some of the books, what's their lineage. We don't know. I just felt this thing in their personal meditation. And because they have the ability to, to have access to resources, they bought, they published this book. Right. And so I think it's just, um, for me, it's a way to be clear that like everybody comes from somewhere, no one, no one exists in a vacuum and that, because I expect to be cited, then I need to model that and cite other.
Speaker 4:No, I love it. Yeah. Thank you for that. And speaking to you, then we'll kind of the last kind of question we have is just paying reverence to one of these really beautiful, but feels also just like in line with fall and in line with Virgo season, it kind of aligned with that drawing in. And so I just loved, um, so a Nisi, um, and I believe that is the correct pronunciation, is that correct?
Speaker 3:Oh, um, and Nancy and
Speaker 4:Nancy, um, and Nancy and, and it's interesting, like, again, my, my references around any of this is so limited. And so I'm excited to hear your, um, just your exploration of why a Nanci was, um, kind of who was chosen to kind of court this space. And we'll kind of leave this as like the, the question, um, and also, uh, how we kind of support that into fall. So I'm just curious, like, you know, um, how that wisdom came through for this journey. Um, and also just like how that kind of wisdom is helping support maybe the time with fall kind of bringing you back.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my goodness. What a beautiful question. So, and Nancy, the divine trickster spider, um, it's, it's, I grew up with a lot of stories, lot of stories, folk tales, um, you know, myths, all of these things. And I grew up in a household, um, thankfully where, uh, it was, you know, knowing your heritage was a big thing, a big thing. I mean, my parents were about in that life. And so they, they would buy these collections of folk tales. Um, and we had collections of like Greek mythology as well because, um, just to get the, get the, the, the, the grander scope. Um, and so I was introduced to a Nancy, um, for, from a very young age and, uh, Nancy, uh, takes on the form of the spider can also take on the form of a man or person. Um, and this, this spider gets into a lot of scrapes, just gets into a lot of, you know, and Nancy's always doing something, but the, the what makes a Nancy. So divine is the fact that Anansi the spider can weave his way out of so many different, uh, circumstances. Uh, one of, uh, nonces, you know, defining myths is about, uh, Nancy going to the sky, God to get all of the stories in the world. So they try to appeal to the sky, got and say, like, I need all the stories in the world and the sky, God, um, you know, no spoilers, the sky, God has a very specific, like, I need these things in order to give you the store, this, this is the price. Um, and I don't really know if this guy got thought that unless he was going to be able to do it. Um, but somehow through, through various methods and Nancy, uh, was cunning and was able to, uh, get these, get these things that the sky got requested and it was able to get the stories. And so I love that as a terrible reader, thinking about, um, storytelling and getting the stories and going up this ladder right to the sky, got to get these stories and to bring them back down. Um, I think about Terrell as a story, as a divine tool and in a lot of ways we have to kind of weave or what is the story. Um, and we have to be cunning sometimes because the cards, you know, they, they have some surprises for us. Very often. The media will tell you the cards have, have lots of surprises. And so you'd have to be cunning. You have to be skillful. Um, you have to use your words carefully. And so all of those things reminds me of a Nancy, the care with which you kind of web, uh, we've, um, the cunning newness of it, and this importance on having the stories to pull from, um, so that people can understand what story am I living into. And then what parts of this story do I want to adjust or change? So that was kind of some of the thoughts of, of a Nancy. I'm excited to move into fall with a Nazi. I'm always learning so many myths about a Nazi. So I've just been like lift anything. I can get my hands on anything I can get my hands on. Um, I've been, been trying to read and learn more about this divine trickster spider. Um, and I love that, uh, Nancy is not perfect. I love this. Like, this is not perfect. Like Nancy gets into a lot of, a lot of situations. And so I think that that's such a good, um, such a good archetypal energy, such a good architect,
Speaker 4:Have you, and you may or may not know, have you, have you seen American gods? Yes, yes. And Orlando Jones. I'm curious how that betrayal feels, you know, and it's actually, I mean, again, I'm a nerd in some ways that always, and I just noticed that they actually were taken off of the show. Yeah. And there's just some really interesting medicine in the times because they, the reasons they were taken off for the show is always just some as you know, I don't even, I'm like, uh, like even renamed that stuff, like, and so just really interesting to notice that. And, um, again, the, how the, I feel like for me with the spider, there's so much around weaving threads of connection and also yeah. Like understanding that the trickster isn't there to actually fool you, but to really allow you to see full perspective, see all the other different ways of being
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh my goodness. That what, yes, I did. I did see that show and I followed, um, a little bit of kind of like what happened afterward. And I was like, this is, these are a lot of words to say that, like, this was racist music, a lot of words to say,
Speaker 4:And I love that he gets to go, like, for me, the beauty of what I'm seeing now more than ever is allowing this opportunity of like full vocalization. Um, and actually people finally listening, which seems like it's about time and, and, and make no surprise on why it's taken so long and just noticing this like, right. The continued ability to really feel into that. And I just continue really. Yeah. I'm just, I just feel there's so many different ways to feel that, but just, I feel like 2020 and the emperor year has been that rise of that.
Speaker 1:Yes. Thanks so much for listening to the witch's moves. If you want to find out more, feel free to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter, where you can find about upcoming info about episodes, about future guests and offerings that will happen through the podcast and the Patrion, as well as some things that come unique, just to folks that connect and rock with us through reading the newsletter, please feel free to check out our Patrion where tears beginning, just at$3, we offer anything and everything for the curious, which so conversational magic, we talk about ritual thresholds, spell work, emailed taro readings that come unique to your inbox. That talk about questions that you have, that you want clarity or direction towards. We are also excited to say that we offer a time to tend on Facebook. So if you're curious and wanting to track with us through Facebook, we have a group called muse magic collective, and we offer articles. There we go live every Thursday, first and fourth of the month on the which word, where we take a word given to us through folks and kind of just explore it and unpack it and go through the etymology and the cosmology of how words and language shape our intimate relationships with self. Lastly, uh, don't hesitate to follow us on Instagram, if it feels good for you. And we are excited to catch you on the broom, we'll see you soon. Bye.